jonathan dough

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Posts by jonathan dough

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  115

  Angel Eye needs an education on the identity and nature of Christ

  by jonathan dough in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  angel eye wrote:.

  john 14 v 1 shows jesus and jehovah are not 1.. acts 2 v 4 and 17 clearly show the holy spirit isnt a person,its gods active force.. john 14 v 28 is total proof,otherwise jesus would clearly be insane saying such things .

  toomany scriptures to prove it...but just a few for you to recall,i guess its hard when your reading false claims to remember the truth.. .

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  jonathan dough

  ohn 5...Jesus says he does only what he beholds his Father doing..then he continues that his Father shows him ALL the things that he himself does. Jesus is telling the Jews that he does evrything the Father does, exactly as he does them. Who can do everything God does exactly as God without being God, or operating with the Father as God?

  Later in John 5 Jesus said all should honor him EXACTLY as they honor the father.

  And if I might add something, this shows no separation, no separate identity which is another false claim the anti-trinitarians make, teaching falsly that Christ was completely separate.
• 
  115

  Angel Eye needs an education on the identity and nature of Christ

  by jonathan dough in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  angel eye wrote:.

  john 14 v 1 shows jesus and jehovah are not 1.. acts 2 v 4 and 17 clearly show the holy spirit isnt a person,its gods active force.. john 14 v 28 is total proof,otherwise jesus would clearly be insane saying such things .

  toomany scriptures to prove it...but just a few for you to recall,i guess its hard when your reading false claims to remember the truth.. .

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  jonathan dough

  AE: John 2 v19-22 clearly do not say Jesus resurrected HIMSELF.

  Absolutely wrong. He specifically said he would raise up his own body. It is the God of the God-man who would do this, not the created flesh creature who Christians teach is not the Almighty and who bled on the cross.

  Jesus made it clear that he would resurrect himself from the dead. Referring to his body Jesus said, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up,” (John 2:19-22). Acts 2:32 appears to contradict Jesus. It provides, “This Jesus God raised up” (see also Galatians 1:1). To resolve this inconsistency the Jehovah's Witnesses argue that John 2:19-22 does not really mean that Jesus would raise himself up, even though it says so, but that “Jesus himself was responsible for his resurrection” (Reasoning, 423,424). They rely on Luke 8:43-48 where the ill woman with the flow of blood was healed not because she healed herself but because she exercised faith in Christ’s power to heal (ibid., 423), and this exercise of faith made her responsible for the healing.

  This analogy, however, is misplaced because John 10:17, 18 says that Christ’s power to resurrect himself was a command (NAB) or charge (RS) given to Jesus from the Father. Yes, he was responsible for his resurrection as the obedient servant on a mission, but he also exercised a power granted to Him to raise Himself from the dead, a power and command which the ill woman of Luke 8:43-48 was not given, and who was not the product of a hypostatic union of God and woman.

  This is why the Father loves me, because I lay down my life in order to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down on my own. I have power to lay it down, and power to take it up again. This command I have received from my Father. (John 10:17, 18 NAB)

  Jesus was not talking about some abstract “responsibility” for his resurrection as the Jehovah's Witnesses claim (Reasoning, 424). The language is unambiguous. He had the “power,” and he exercised it.

  http://www.144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-5.html#22
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  115

  Angel Eye needs an education on the identity and nature of Christ

  by jonathan dough in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  angel eye wrote:.

  john 14 v 1 shows jesus and jehovah are not 1.. acts 2 v 4 and 17 clearly show the holy spirit isnt a person,its gods active force.. john 14 v 28 is total proof,otherwise jesus would clearly be insane saying such things .

  toomany scriptures to prove it...but just a few for you to recall,i guess its hard when your reading false claims to remember the truth.. .

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  jonathan dough

  By the way, while "godhead" is an acceptable translation of the word "theotes", and many translations use it, "deity" is also used and acceptable.

  No. You are confusing theotes with theiotes, one of the JWs deceptions. Read this:

  http://www.144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-6.html#29

  Colossians 2:9 is convincing evidence of the divinity of Christ. It states of Christ that “in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily” (Green’s Literal Translation). The Greek word for “Godhead” is theotes and means divinity. It “stresses deity, the state of being God (Strong and Vine’s, 115). It is to be distinguished from theiotes which refers to the attributes of God, his divine nature and properties and it is this definition which the Jehovah's Witnesses incorrectly attach to Col 2:9 when they claim that the Godhead there merely refers to His “divine qualities” (Reasoning, 420). This is manifestly incorrect according to Strong and Vine’s, and what the Jehovah's Witnesses are actually doing is swapping theiotes for theotes. Regarding the Godhead (theotes) at Colossians 2:9:

  In Col 2:9, Paul is declaring that in the Son there dwells all the fullness of absolute Godhead; they were no mere rays of divine glory which gilded him, lighting up His Person for a season and with a splendor not His own; but He was, and is, absolute and perfect God; and the apostle uses theotes to express this essential and personal Godhead of the Son. Theotes indicates the divine essence of Godhood, the personality of God; (Strong and Vines, 114). [Theotes] stresses deity, the state of being God. (ibid, 115).

  (Theiotes, on the other hand), … refers to the attributes of God, His divine nature and properties. (Strong and Vine’s, 114)
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  115

  Angel Eye needs an education on the identity and nature of Christ

  by jonathan dough in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  angel eye wrote:.

  john 14 v 1 shows jesus and jehovah are not 1.. acts 2 v 4 and 17 clearly show the holy spirit isnt a person,its gods active force.. john 14 v 28 is total proof,otherwise jesus would clearly be insane saying such things .

  toomany scriptures to prove it...but just a few for you to recall,i guess its hard when your reading false claims to remember the truth.. .

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  jonathan dough

  where is the original post where these comments were made?

  It was late and I was rummaging. I'll try and track it down for you later.

  JD II
• 
  115

  Angel Eye needs an education on the identity and nature of Christ

  by jonathan dough in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  angel eye wrote:.

  john 14 v 1 shows jesus and jehovah are not 1.. acts 2 v 4 and 17 clearly show the holy spirit isnt a person,its gods active force.. john 14 v 28 is total proof,otherwise jesus would clearly be insane saying such things .

  toomany scriptures to prove it...but just a few for you to recall,i guess its hard when your reading false claims to remember the truth.. .

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  jonathan dough

  My point was that, NOWHERE is it plainly stated that there is a "trinity' or that Jesus is God ( John 1:1 not withstanding), we can interpret passages to mean that, and we may be correct, but nowhere is it plainly stated.

  You couldn't be more wrong and you are making the same mistakes Reniaa makes by not paying attention to what has been said or written.

  The fact that the word "Trinity" is not used in the Bible is irrelevant. Neither is theocracy or monotheism mentioned. The fact that Paul had to correct some people and that there was a debate doesn't prove a thing. You have fallen for the common JW trap of reading things too narrowly and not applying a broader common sense analysis. The catholic and protestant churches have had no problem at all in seeing the strong evidence that the Word was and is God, (not the created humanity of Jesus that is not God the Almighty). It is obvious that you are reluctant to read anything contrary to your opinions.

  That Jesus was and is God is incredibly plain, particularly that he was not just a man. I'm not being mean-spirited but you don't understand the hypostatic union. Here are just a few proofs that Jesus was and is God, a divine person who assumed a human nature:

  21) Phillip said to Jesus: Show us the Father - (John 14:8-10)

  22) Jesus Christ resurrected Himself - (John 2:19 - 22)

  23) The heavenly resurrected Jesus is identified as Almighty God and the “First and the Last” because there can be only one “First and Last” and one “Alpha and Omega” and Jesus assumed both titles.

  24) The Father and I are one - (John 10:27-30)

  25) There is only one Savior who grants eternal salvation, and both the divine Person of Christ and God are that Savior.

  26) Jesus is “master” and absolute ruler - (Despotes); a separate Christ and a separate God cannot both exercise this role - (2 Peter 2:1; Jude 4)

  27) The eternal Christ was not created - (Isaiah 9:6)

  28) “Let us make man in our image” was not directed to Jesus the created master craftsman working beside the Creator, but was self-communication within the triune God - (Genesis 1:26)

  29) The fullness of the Godhead dwells inseparably in Jesus - (Colossians 2:9); He is the very imprint of God’s being - (Hebrews 1:3)

  30) Prior to His incarnation Christ subsisted in the form (morphe) of God - (Philippians 2:6)

  31) The Word, Christ, was the firstborn of all creation, but not in the sense of being created - (Colossians 1:15)

  32) The Word was “begotten,” but not made, not created - (John 1:14)

  33) The Messiah of the Old Testament stems from eternity - (Micah 5:2; Proverbs 8:22)

  34) The Almighty says of Jesus “Your throne, Oh God, is forever and ever” - (Hebrews 1:8, 9)

  35) Thomas called the resurrected Jesus “My Lord and my God” - (John 20:26 - 29)

  36) Jesus refers to Himself as the “I AM,” which is God’s own self-designation - (John 8:58)

  37) And the Word was God - (John 1:1)

  46) Jesus Christ is not Michael the Archangel as the Jehovah's Witnesses teach.

  47) Conclusion.

  There's more, much more. First read, then argue. But don't just skim the titles; that's not good academics. And don't rely upon your own understanding. Many smarter people than you or I have paved the way long ago.

  JD II
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  115

  Angel Eye needs an education on the identity and nature of Christ

  by jonathan dough in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  angel eye wrote:.

  john 14 v 1 shows jesus and jehovah are not 1.. acts 2 v 4 and 17 clearly show the holy spirit isnt a person,its gods active force.. john 14 v 28 is total proof,otherwise jesus would clearly be insane saying such things .

  toomany scriptures to prove it...but just a few for you to recall,i guess its hard when your reading false claims to remember the truth.. .

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  jonathan dough

  Evidence for or against trinity much like beauty is often based on the eye of the beholder.

  Not in this case.

  http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-5.html#21
• 
  115

  Angel Eye needs an education on the identity and nature of Christ

  by jonathan dough in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  angel eye wrote:.

  john 14 v 1 shows jesus and jehovah are not 1.. acts 2 v 4 and 17 clearly show the holy spirit isnt a person,its gods active force.. john 14 v 28 is total proof,otherwise jesus would clearly be insane saying such things .

  toomany scriptures to prove it...but just a few for you to recall,i guess its hard when your reading false claims to remember the truth.. .

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  jonathan dough

  Those of us responding felt we were acting in defense (not in attacking offense) of Angel Eyes based on your condescending title singling her out rather then an open discussion of Trinity.

  It is just a title, for crying out loud. You'e elevating form over substance. You people are hypocrites of the worst kind. I've read your posts and they are hateful, mean-spirited, demeaning and viscious. Go back and read what you have said about people, like Reniaa for instance, horrible things. Saying she should be run over by a train, or calling people swine. Don't get high-brow with me. And don't hide behind some 'title' because you don't have the means or ability to engage in a conversation on the issues. You're the ones who are making more of this. Not once have you even dared to address her comments from the initial post. That speaks volumes. A title. Give me a break. This message board is filled with poison, specifically directed to individuals. Try dealing with that instead. If you have something meaningful to say on point, then say it.
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  115

  Angel Eye needs an education on the identity and nature of Christ

  by jonathan dough in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  angel eye wrote:.

  john 14 v 1 shows jesus and jehovah are not 1.. acts 2 v 4 and 17 clearly show the holy spirit isnt a person,its gods active force.. john 14 v 28 is total proof,otherwise jesus would clearly be insane saying such things .

  toomany scriptures to prove it...but just a few for you to recall,i guess its hard when your reading false claims to remember the truth.. .

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  2. 
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  jonathan dough

  AE: Jesus wasnt and isnt God....he is Jehovahs first born

  Read. Think. The proof is overwhelming. Don't just assume you have the truth, please. You are inadvertently misleading a lot of people.

  http://www.144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-5.html#20

  By the way, don't take any of this personally, but you, after all, are the one who made the initial comments. Not someone else.

  JD II
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  115

  Angel Eye needs an education on the identity and nature of Christ

  by jonathan dough in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  angel eye wrote:.

  john 14 v 1 shows jesus and jehovah are not 1.. acts 2 v 4 and 17 clearly show the holy spirit isnt a person,its gods active force.. john 14 v 28 is total proof,otherwise jesus would clearly be insane saying such things .

  toomany scriptures to prove it...but just a few for you to recall,i guess its hard when your reading false claims to remember the truth.. .

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  jonathan dough

  Biblically and scripturally speaking, Jesus IS

  The first born of all creation .......

  The Word (God the Son) was not the first thing created because He is eternal. This is a major, major JW misconception and distortion. "First born" does not mean created but is a common term of art describing a special relationship. As usual, the JWs read it too literally.

  http://www.144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-6.html#31

  “First-born” or “first-born of” is not limited to a member of a group of creatures but has broad application. According to Strong and Vine’s, “firstborn” (Greek protokos) with reference to the preexistent Christ is used “of His relationship to the Father, expressing His priority to, and preeminence over, creation, not in the sense of being the first to be born. It is used of superiority of position (cf. Ex 4:22; Deut 21:16, 17)” (ibid., 218).

  (Prototokos) Firstborn is used (1) of Christ as born of the Virgin Mary (Mt 1:25; Lk 2:7), (2) of His relationship to the Father, expressing His priority to, and preeminence over, creation, not in the sense of being the first to be born. It is used of superiority of position (cf. Ex 4:22; Deut 21:16, 17). (3) Chronologically, the four passages relating to Christ as firstborn, first begotten, may be set forth thusly: (3a) Col 1:15, where His eternal relationship with the Father is in view, and the clause means both that He was the firstborn before all creation and that He Himself produced creation (the genitive case being objective, as v. 16 makes clear); (3b) Col 1:18 and Rev 1:5, in reference to His resurrection; (3c) Rom 8:29, His being firstborn among those living by faith alone in God the Father; (3d) Heb 1:6, first begotten, stresses His superior position, His preeminence over all; His second advent in contrast to His first advent, at His birth, being implied. (Strong and Vine’s, 218)

  As such, the Jehovah's Witnesses are wrong in their interpretation of “first-born” at Colossians 1:15, 16, and Trinitarian Christians are correct in saying “that the ‘first-born’ here means prime, most excellent, most distinguished. Thus, Christ could be understood to be, not part of creation, but the most distinguished in relation to those whom he created,” (Reasoning, 408). This is particularly true in light of the unequivocal language of Colossians 1:17 which says “He is before all things” (RSV).
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  115

  Angel Eye needs an education on the identity and nature of Christ

  by jonathan dough in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  angel eye wrote:.

  john 14 v 1 shows jesus and jehovah are not 1.. acts 2 v 4 and 17 clearly show the holy spirit isnt a person,its gods active force.. john 14 v 28 is total proof,otherwise jesus would clearly be insane saying such things .

  toomany scriptures to prove it...but just a few for you to recall,i guess its hard when your reading false claims to remember the truth.. .

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  2. 
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  jonathan dough

  where is the initial post?

  The first entry of this thread. It's strong, I agree, but it is meant to be.